The Danger of Building Fences

I see your point, but what about being as close to G-d as possible and as far from the line that separates good from evil?  I don’t think we should put up “fences” for ourselves, but we shouldn’t try to walk the line either.  I believe that each person should have personally convictions impressed upon them by G-d.

I totally agree with the whole fence thing, I mean I was talking to a friend the other day and she said in order to work on staff for a campus ministry she would have to sign a contract that said she would not drink a sip of alcohol. That is taking it to an extreme I mean Jesus made wine out of water for his first miracle and the bible tells you to not lose your head with drink, but nothing about no alcohol at all. Also you can use a drink as a way to get someone to open up or just talk to you and then work your way into their life and tell them about Jesus, but if you were to say I think drinking is wrong then they may not feel comfortable talking to you when they think you are better then them. It seems that us as christians put up so many extra rules(fences) that are unnecessary and sometimes suffocating.

Levitical law said that if you touched a dead body you became unclean. Over time, the Pharisees added to that law; first by making someone unclean if they were in the same room as a dead body, later by saying you’re unclean if you’re in the same building. We’ve done the same today as Cliff pointed out. A few years ago, the church I was involved in at the time decided to begin a small group program. Everyone who wanted to volunteer to lead a small group had to apply, be approved and then go to a 4 hour training session. So I’m sitting in this session and our pastor got to the rules the small groups had to follow. Rule number one was that the small groups had to fall in line with our denomination’s statement of faith at all times. Here’s the example he gave: if you have a group that meets at a restaurant and a non-Christian friend shows up, they can’t order an alcoholic drink because this is a church-sponsored group. The group can’t sit in the smoking section for the same reason (back when restaurants still had smoking sections). And if someone comes dressed inappropriately (church standards, not restaurant standards), they can’t sit with the group.

I raised my hand and asked, “So, you want us to invite our unchurched friends to small groups, but only if they’re willing to play by our rules?”

The author makes another statement about man-made fences in that man-made fences imply that God’s fences are not good enough or that He needs our help.  Granted each of us has areas that are stronger temptations where we definitely want to stay as far away as possible, but I believe the trick is not to impose the fences we choose or create for ourselves upon others.  It seems that often when unbelievers view believers who have lots of fences around them, the belief they hold seems hard to get to or even unobtainable.  The author puts it this way:  “While outsiders might express great respect for the commitment and self-discipline shown by the gold package (believers), it’s the same kind of respect most people have for someone who runs marathons, climbs Mt. Everest, or notches any other high-dedication achievement:  We’re duly impressed, but not too likely to sign up ourselves.  The price is too high.  The fact is, Jesus came to lower the entry bar, not to raise it.  He’s the ultimate ‘come as you are’ Savior.  Anything we do to unduly raise the bar sabotages the work he came to do.  Once we’re in, the standards get pretty high.  But as we saw earlier, meeting them is not something we’re asked to do before following Jesus.  It’s not something we achieve on our own.  It’s the work of the Holy Spirit, who provides us with the power and motivation.  We just follow his lead.”  The author also points out that often instead of producing God-pleasing spirituality, the extra fences are more likely to produce pride, arrogance, and self-sufficiency.  Still reading this book - a great read so far.

One experience I had that I can relate to recently was I posted an update about having a Guinness (just one) on Facebook after a long week… particularly a 250th Anniversary special brew they made.  For full disclosure, Chris knows that Guinness is my favorite, and it is not one that should be gulped down and binged upon to really enjoy it.  One of my friends on Facebook, who happens to go to this church, IMs me out of concern that I was talking about drinking so much… I went bac to my post history, and the only other post I made was one of my trip photos to Jack Daniels in Lynchburg, and for a photo caption, I put the typical Homer Simpson quote about beer (a beer tank… where they store it before it’s distilled).  Anyway, it took a lot for me to convince her, and I still think that she thinks I’m in denial about a drinking problem.  I felt like I was being made to feel guilty about it.

I really think mainstream Christianity misses the boat on a lot of things.  They teach a lot of good things at times, but they don’t always follow it.  I’ve been reading up on “Chase the Goose”, and there are a lot of good points, very similar to the danger of building fences.  We have a tendency as people to compartmentalize or separate ourselves from what we feel is bad, and in some cases, even from God.  God didn’t mean for a fence between Him and us.  He wanted us to fully embrace Him, which is why he ultimately sent Jesus down as the ultimate sacrifice.  He wanted to make it an adventure, to not get caged into things like responsibility (not like being totally irresponsible, just breaking away from the inane responsibilities that we feel we must hold ourselves to and take the time to pursue God and His will, while still paying attention to the real responsibilities of life, like taking care of family, providing, etc.), guilt, assumptions, even failure. 

I should boil it down to this single question… how do we get closer to God by building fences and caging ourselves?

“I should boil it down to this single question… how do we get closer to God by building fences and caging ourselves?”

Awesome. I’m definitely using that. Also Steven, same “drinking problem” situation for me Sunday before last, so you’re not alone.

This quote from your blog disturbs me just a bit.

“The same with alcohol - apparently a glass of merlot at dinner or a beer after work was the first step toward a life of alcoholism and misery.”

The reason it disturbs me is because I believe your Sunday School teacher was not putting up a man-made fence here.  This warning comes directly from scripture.  Proverbs 23:31-32 says, “Do not not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly.  In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper.”  Kinda sounds to me like “don’t even START to drink the wine or the beer, because it will lead to a lot of pain.”  Your Sunday School teacher was not putting up their own fence, but merely sharing God’s fence with you.

I believe you are exactly right, as Christians we do put up many of our own boundaries that absolutely have no scriptural relevance, but there are boundaries that God shows us in His Word that we try to test and push aside.  It’s true, you MAY drink a beer here and there or have a glass of wine with your meal and never get drunk, and never become a raging alcoholic.  But…..then again….you may get carried away and get drunk, and your body MAY become addicted to the alcohol and you MAY become a life-long alcoholic.  The only one that knows exactly how far the alcohol will take you is God, and that is why He warns us to stay away from it.  He knows how dangerous it is.  When I was a teenager, my Sunday School teacher and my parents told me to abstain from pre-marital sex.  Many will say that is a fence THEY put up.  I believe it is a fence GOD put up.  What if I went ahead and did it and said, “see…my girlfriend isn’t pregnant….and I didn’t get some horrible disease…..you were wrong!”  So I continue to cross that fence.  Sooner or later, the consequences will become severe and I will wish I had never taken that first step across the fence.

God gives us warnings and boundaries because he knows the dangers we will face if we get too close to certain things.  The warning in Proverbs is a warning that says, “Don’t even look at it!!!”  If you do, it may lead you down the road of destruction and you will be hurt in the end.

Please don’t try to rationalize something you do, just because you like to do it.  Search God’s Word, and if He warns you to stay away from it, listen to Him and heed His warning.  He knows what is best!

I’m not an advocate for legalism or anything.  legalism can take the place of God.  just playing the devil’s advocate.  It may not be a SIN to break the additional fences that ppl may put up around God’s fences, but it may not be wise.  for example - (just for fun!)  we have an unspoken rule in my marriage that my husband doesn’t walk around naked around other women.  it may or may not lead to fornication but it wouldn’t be wise -or respectful of me.  There is a lot to say about WISDOM.  also, in the beginning, adam and eve did not have additional human fences (as far as we know) around the tree of good and evil, but they still ate of that tree.  maybe they should have had additional rules or fences like…maybe they should have avoided that tree altogether by taking their walks on the other side of the garden limiting their time around that tempting tree and maybe avoiding that sneaky snake :).  idk   also, Romans 14 comes to mind.  please understand that i am not for legalism.  i am for one having a close personal relationship w/Christ where one experiences God’s grace and mercy and the freedom that comes w/being a believer-  but also the conviction of sin.  I really like Romans 14:12-13 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God. So let’s stop condemning each other.  Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.

Chris - My bad, I totally missed that that it was a quote from a book.  I guess I took it personal, didn’t I teach you in Sunday School???  LOL

The passage in Proverbs 23 contains many warnings.  I believe the warning I am talking about, in verse 31, is very clear.  One might say this is a continuance of the verse before when it uses the word “linger” to simply reinforce the fact that overindulgence is not good.  I believe verse 31 is that warning to not even start.  Every sin has a beginning.  There is that first step.  Some Christians can take that step, and then stop after it.  Some cannot.  The warning here is to not take the first step, so you don’t end up regretting it later.  Testing our boundaries, and getting as close to them as we can without going past them is a dangerous thing.  We are only human, and God knows our weaknesses.  That is why He gives us warnings and boundaries. 

Just want you to know I love ya bro, and I like having these discussions, even though I disagree with you at times.  Just wish I lived closer to you so we could have them in person!  These topics you bring up are very thought provokiing.  You make me think, as always.

I can’t escape how scandal always seemed to be around Jesus.  For the longest time, I tried to explain it away but here’s what finally broke me up - if grace isn’t scandalous, if it doesn’t make me uncomfortable..if it doesn’t make me scream - ‘that’s not fair, that’s not right’, then I’m probably not dealing with God’s grace.  The second part of that is this—that grace doesn’t stop once I decided to follow him.  It’s new every morning. 

Which brings me to this - I get Romans 14.  I understand it.  I get that I’m not supposed to be obstacle for those ‘weaker’ in faith to get to Jesus.  I do the best I can, but it is impossible for me to live it.  I am my own stumbling block at times.  Which forces me right back to grace…scandalous, uncomfortable, unfair grace. 

Maybe that’s the point of it all anyway…the fence is there to shove us to grace…

and Andrea…you should still have your own place to write.  Just try not to upstage Chris too much starting out.  :)

i wasn’t speaking on a particular issue either other than wisdom.  i think we should use wisdom to make our decisions and teach our children about wisdom.  often, i was told to not do something or that something was wrong and there wasn’t an explanation as to why it was to be avoided.  i was told that dancing was wrong.  of course it’s not wrong.  but as i got older and danced w/guys i understood a little why my elders overreacted.  it would have been nice if someone would have explained to me about risks and wisdom. - w/an understanding of God’s grace.  and of course, as an adult, i have maturity paired w/behaviors i was restricted from as a child or teen.  that makes a huge difference.

Romans 14:12-13 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God. So let’s stop condemning each other.  Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.  -i agree w/you Chris.  i believe in Romans times it was probably a mixture of Old Testament law and “fences” that ppl created.  so i don’t think things are all that different today.  maybe not as much of the Old Testament law.

One must also be cautious of the road that LEADS to rebellion.  the behavior may not be a sin, but is it a behavior that many ppl of a rebellious nature participate in regularly?

i believe it is better to err on the side of restraint and avoidance then the other way.  of course understanding the entire time that there is freedom in Christ because of his grace and making other’s aware of God’s grace.  i believe many non-Christians think God/Christianity is about following rules and restricting behavior which is false.  but i also think that non-Christians lose respect for the Christian that does whatever. -there’s not much difference between the world and that kind of Christian.  no need to lose our common sense here.  i think we can avoid being a stumbling block to most ppl w/out embracing legalism.  it’s God’s grace that draws ppl to Him.

the book Andrea is reading sounds interesting.  i like the fence analogy.

alcoholism, which is a legitimate disease, is socially acceptable to condemn (at least in my encounters with various religious circles).

laziness, pride and gluttony is not. you wouldn’t call someone out in small group, suggesting they NOT refill their Route 44 Coke for the 3rd time or call jenny.

i wonder if you applied the same fences to gluttony, which IS a deadly sin (along with laziness and pride), that are applied to alcohol use, which is NOT. what would that mean? ...we’re not to linger? isn’t that what sit-down restaurants and dining room tables are for? what would happen to “fun, food and fellowship” and pot-luck dinners? can you imagine centering fellowship around alcohol?

food? food is ok.

of course real fellowship is centered on jesus.

food <JESUS> alcohol = last supper.

i may seem ridiculous. i may BE ridiculous. of course no one would suggest you don’t even gaze at food. we were designed to NEED food. but unfortunately, by the legality legalists impose upon themselves, (at least in my understanding) their logic can’t separate instances. it has to be across the board black and white. if this, then this. always.

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

bethany,

they ARE different.  alcoholism has graver and more immediate consequences, not just for oneself but for others as well, than the other sins you listed.  hence the reason for more “legalism” when it comes to alcohol.

Just to be clear.  I am not a legalist either.  I am a follower of Christ.  I do my best to obey God’s Word.  If doing or not doing what it tells me to do or not do in His Word makes me a legalist in peoples eyes, then so be it.  I will totally agree with the fact that gluttony of food is a sin.  The Bible is clear on that.  The problem I have is when people begin to compare the “partaking” of food to the “partaking” of alcohol.  We must remember one very important fact, and Bethany stated that fact.  The human body must have food to exist.  The human body DOES NOT have to have alcoholic beverages to exist.  Comparing the use of these two items is like comparing apples to bananas.  It’s not even a valid argument.  Also, I am growing increasingly weary of hearing the rationalization that “Jesus drank alcohol” so why can’t we?  If you study the scriptures in depth you will find that there were two kinds of “wine”.  Fermented and unfermented.  Call me hardheaded (and many will), but you will NEVER get me to believe that Jesus was a drinker of fermented wine.  Anyone can tell you that even one or two drinks can give you a “buzz”.  I can’t see my Lord sitting at the Lord’s supper with a buzz.  Say what you want, but alcohol is a drug that will control you if you give it a foothold.  That’s what Jesus was talking about in Ephesians when he said “Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit”.  The word drunk here means to be “controlled by”.  I know, I know….moderation, right?  But, seriously, how many drinks do you have to take before you begin to be controlled by the alcohol.  The writer of Proverbs knew that it didn’t take many.  That’s why he gave us the warning he did.  I guess what I’m saying is….be careful…..and don’t get too close to that fence….or you might just get shocked!!!

i meant graver as it is related to traffic accidents- drunk driving and the like…also, alcohol leading to severe depression and mental illness, abusing other substances, as well as an increased risk for child abuse in the home (domestic abuse).

@ed I haven’t seen you as a legalist, even though I disagree with some of your points.

teresa: I have my doubts about alcohol use leading to such things about depression and mental illness.  Usually, there’s something that is already underlying that is brought out by, or may even be hidden by, alcohol abuse.  Yes, it’s a depressant, but by depressant it means that it depresses or counteracts the chemical activity in our brains, whether it’s normal or imbalanced.  That is why a normally depressed person can feel happy when they are drunk.  It’s kind of like how Ritalin, a stimulant, helps calm down someone with ADHD.  We also find mental illness, no matter how mild or severe, rather taboo to deal with, and therefore tend to judge and ostracize them. 

Regarding drunk driving and its results.  Yeah, the consequences of doing so can be deadly.  It’s its abuse that leads toward such behavior.  Of course, some of us here have had a little too much, and I can only hope we maintained some level of judgment to make the right decision not to engage in such behavior.  I know I have, because I have always felt so strongly about it, that even if I didn’t quite “feel drunk” (and there are times that the environment you’re in you don’t feel so), I was adamant about not getting behind the wheel of a car. 

Even if Jesus Himself didn’t drink and said to not be drunk with wine, but be filled with the sprit, why did he have Wine at those occasions, including where He created wine from water?  Furthermore, going to more recent history, how come we have the distilleries here in KY and TN that had roots going back to the mid-late 1800’s, where many ministers actually made boubon/whiskey?

Steven, Bethany and i were comparing alcoholism to gluttony and pride, etc.  so in that case, we were discussing the abuse of alcohol as compared to other abuses of the body. 

i know much about alcohol, substance abuse, depression and SMI.  i worked in that field for over 5 years in fort worth and dallas as a licensed counselor and a QMHP (qualified mental health professional).  depression can often come first and then lead to alcoholism.  it is called self-medicating.  there are also those that use alcohol as a form of recreation and start to experience sx’s of depression. i’ve witnessed many young ppl who have come to my clinic for help cuz their partying became a lifestyle and now they are addicted and depressed.  alcohol and other drugs can also serve as a trigger for SMI. i saw the statistics two days ago when getting my CEUs - it’s not just depressed or mentally ill ppl that abuse alcohol.  alcohol is dangerous.  it should be handled w/care.  it is mind altering in a way that food, laziness and pride are not.  after what i have seen and heard over the past several years, i think it wise to avoid alcohol.  i may not WANT to avoid it as i enjoy drinking alcohol, but i know it is a slippery slope.  many other’s past and present know that it can be a slippery slope as well. i err on the side of safety cuz i don’t know where my limits are.  i don’t need alcohol.  i love sweet tea and water.  they serve me well.  i have many Christian friends that drink and i have much respect for them.  would never say anything to them about it cuz, frankly, i don’t care (unless they have a problem w/it and need help).  like i said before, i’m not really concerned about the alcohol part of the discussion as much as i am concerned w/how wisdom can play a part in ones decision making.  legalism is a lot about attitude.  i avoid some things and will teach my children to do so as well. - w/the understanding that everything is permissable but may not be beneficial.  i think the decision to avoid something is personal.  between you and God and shouldn’t always be interpreted as legalism.

Great discussion. Many good points have been made in a very civil, kind way. I’m grateful this exchange hasn’t turned nasty like so many online discussions do. All of you are to be commended.

Alcohol can certainly be harmful if abused, but so can food, exercise, plastic surgery, tanning, work, golf, sex…the list goes on. None of these issues are sinful in and of themselves. When taken to an extreme, they can be.

I find it interesting that Satan seems to be content to take us in whatever direction we want to go. Build a fence around all of these and impose your fence on others—you’re a legalist. Abuse any of these and you run the risk of addiction or idolatry. Even the abuse can go in either direction. Eat too much and you’re a glutton. Eat too little and it’s an eating disorder. Neither are healthy.

We can build fences around just about anything. How about the issue of modesty in how we dress or in the choice of a swimsuit? We just returned from a vacation in southern California. My wife wore a two-piece swimsuit. In comparison to some others I saw, it was modest. Someone else would build their fence to steer clear of a two-piece. That’s fine…for someone else.

What I find most interesting is how strongly we feel about fences, but don’t seem to feel as strongly about guarding our freedom. I forget who mentioned it, but it’s perfectly fine to have our own fences—the problem comes when I try to build one for you or you want to build one for me.

I can’t help thinking we end up majoring on the minors, become completely irrelevant to a lost world and then wonder why no one wants to join us.

I have to agree with Gregg; there’s a quote from Rupertus Meldenius that sums up this discussion perfectly; “In the essentials we need unity, in the non-essentials we need freedom; but in all things we need love.”